More Trinity wrestling! Joy.

A few days (maybe weeks, I have lost track of time recently; i now measure weeks by church) ago I had a fairly productive conversation with Jake about the Trinity and verses that seemingly support it. It was the first time I dipped into the greek and hebrew documents to find the meanings behind the words used.

Thank God (no really) for chat histories!

In the conversation I reiterated my understanding of John 1 (the Word) in that the Word was God's plan of salvation manifest in the Christ Jesus.

He also asked for my understanding of when Thomas says "My Lord and my God" to Jesus after some obviously phenomenal event (eg appearing to him after being dead for an inordinate amount of time, or juggling 5 flaming oxen blindfolded). I said that the word used for God was not YHVH, but theos which was also applied to Satan; namely:

• 2 Cor 4:4 - The god(theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God(theos).

He responded by saying the meaning and nuances of the word are lost in translation, and that it's the surrounding context and words that give the real meaning behind the word; in this case the qualifier is "of this world".

I responded (with the help of the BlueLetterBible concordance) with the verse:

• John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Further on Jesus is responding to the Jewish priests accusations of Jesus equating Himself with YHVH, by saying that it says in their scriptures that other men were called gods, and yet scripture was unbroken. But more to the point, this short verse is very direct in that God calls men gods in the Hebrew Scriptures, and this word is carried over as theos!

Excuse the exclamation mark, I got very excited at that point.

If Jesus really was God, then they should've used YHVH or some other non-confusable word in reference to Jesus.

Also, the first Jews will have been strict monotheists; i fail to see how the Trinity doctrine would fit in comfortably with their beliefs. If it was the doctrine then surely an extensive Trinity proof document will have been produced for avid scrutiny by would-be Jewish converts, something along the line of the Athanasian creed, but without the cyclical mystical nonsense. Speaking of cyclical mystical nonsense, how's this for psychobabble:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

In case you're wondering, that was the Athanasian creed, which traditional churches hold to fervorently.

#25 is confusing to me especially, since Jesus actually says that "The Father is greater than I". This is partly described by #33, but it suggests that Christ has two distinct natures when it should a unified entity... But that's the problem you run into when you try and force God into Christ.

Sorry for the uncharacteristically poor presentation and content, I've been awake 23 hours since my sleep pattern is way out of whack, and I'm attempting the "stay up through 'abnormal' bedtime and go to sleep at a 'normal' bedtime" strategy. I've tried it before but usually manage to get totally bored and fall asleep at my desk, confounding the whole process and further wrecking my sleep pattern.

So, a word of advice, don't stay up late into the wee hours of the morning playing Rome: Total War and Battlefield 2142...